I'm so disappointed in this show. The way you have coputulated to the democratic party you are no longer an alternative to mainstream neoliberal media. I may as well watch MSNBC or CNN.
You and me both. Honestly, I feel cheated, having been a paid subscriber to both Krystal Kyle and Friends and Breaking Points. As you said, it’s like watching diet MSNBC.
Having seen the entire debate now and Sabby's take on it, I have to say that the above joke should be seen simply as a joke. BJG turned out to be seriously more combative (in the good sense of the word) than I expected. Whereas Sabby's commentary and counter-arguments were "curiouser" than K&K's arguments at times...
You’re setting up straw man arguments. The aim is not to win. It’s to try and get the 5% required for Federal funding, to advance the viability of 3rd parties in future elections, to show the DNC that we won’t cave into the scare tactics and the long moribund “Lesserevilism”, i mean it’s debatable who actually is the lesser evil. It depends on your ethics or priorities. There are things called ‘Principles’ and ‘Red Lines’, which Kyle used to talk about but has seemingly never really had any after all. The duopoly has to be broken and it’s always going to be easier to accept the Dems - fake - promises than do the difficult thing. Nothing ever worth doing is easy and it never happens overnight, but it does have to start somewhere. It may take years, but it’ll be even longer if it’s continuously postponed. We have to demonstrate our convictions are real, not just talking points on a Utube channel. But you two know all this anyway, which is why you’re making such strawman arguments and establishment reasoning. The only question is why?
The only answer seems to be "because they are shilling for Williamson". Since she's running in the Democratic primary, they don't have much choice. The thing is, they do not really do her a service with their hardcore grift. The audience isn't that dumb. Even Kyle's one...
That is hilarious. Literally no 3rd party has ever won a federal election. Not one. There is literally no viability for it. You think 5% and a little funding is going to help battle the duopoly? Laugh. Out. Loud. The money is in donations - whether individual, corporate or dark. Do you know why the Libertarian Party has never won? Not because they didn’t have federal funding. But because they didn’t have any funding. They’re a laughing stock, as is and has always been the Green Party.
I don’t disagree on the duopoly, but the problem is you want to just toss someone at the system and flail about, giving a finger to the system like a pubescent 13-year old. What needs to happen is putting in the work and actually building something.
Like all libertarian candidates, Cornel West is just slapping his name on something in a doomed plea, but he didn’t and hasn’t done any work to actually build something. Just running is not enough. Just giving the finger isn’t enough.
The best way to corrupt something is from within. And what needs to happen is a hostile takeover of one of the parties from within. That’s not new. That’s always how American politics has worked. If you want to change something, you have to be a part of it. This 3rd party nonsense is never going to challenge the duopoly, but if you take all these little third parties and independent/leftist groups and actually organized, and ran people within the system then you could easily start taking over a party. Especially considering how in vogue “populism” is - but more importantly leftist and progressive policies.
At which point then you get to actually create law and enact those policies and break the duopoly.
It tickles and saddens me how much the left cries, yet puts so little forethought or work into process and the “how” to get things done. It’s incredible laziness and naïveté. Your convictions are my schadenfreude.
You are using a circular argument. Like Kyle - “Third parties never stand a chance” & “I’d support them if they were viable”, without making the logical link that in order for a third party to become viable it requires support BEFORE everyone else decides to jump on board. You don’t want to do the work necessary for the break up of the duopoly, yet you claim to agree with the sentiment. Noting worthwhile happens overnight, or one election cycle. How many times was the Civil Rights act introduced before it finally passed? Do you think MLK, sat in jail, said to himself “It’s not worth it if it doesn’t happen straight away”?
"What needs to happen is putting in the work and actually building something."
And so instead of helping to build infrastructure behind a compelling third party candidate, you should definitely hold your nose and vote for Biden and surely, soon, ranked choice voting will magically appear and save us and then we can all vote third party.
"That’s always how American politics has worked." Ah yes, who can forget that amazing work George Washington did to reform the monarchy from within. Or the amazing work Abraham Lincoln did to end slavery by working within the Whig party and moving the oVErtOn WInDoW so that we could vote for slaves to be free. Truly brave of them to put aside their childish ambitions of sweeping change and instead embrace the Enlightened Incrementalist approach that has led to the amazing blossoming of today's America.
"but if you take all these little third parties and independent/leftist groups and actually organized, and ran people within the system then you could easily start taking over a party. Especially considering how in vogue “populism” is - but more importantly leftist and progressive policies."
Yes, exactly!!!!!!!!!! That was such a brilliant idea that Kyle implemented with The Squad!!! It is why we now have a 15 dollar minimum wage and Medicare for all!!!!!! Oh actually once elected they just vote in lock step with the party? Because if you try to operate as some kind of cancer within a larger organization instead of creating a separate framework under which to operate you will only ever succeed in killing the host or being absorbed into it??
The difference is that Krystal and Kyle’s point is that the goal of getting 5 percent is not worth having trump win the election. Especially considering the best thing Biden has done is the labor relations board. It’s not a straw man argument it’s real question they honest actors can have disagreements with the answer.
A great topic and guest! I'd love to see Cornel West be directly interviewed as well. He has made himself available to independent media so there's no reason not to have him present his case to audiences of this Substack and Breaking Points.
But it should be noted that there's a problem with framing the debate this way. Winning a single election isn't the only important achievement for a movement or party. Meeting the 5-percent threshold to unlock federal funds and liberating our political imagination from the chocking grasp the duopoly would be major advances worthy of our efforts.
Yes, and I think that's a worthy debate that ought to be had. One where we recognize thoughtful people can have reasonable disagreements. We can discuss long term and short term aims. But we will also have to account for the fact that Trump and the Republican party have only gained support from segments of the population many on the left wish to protect from right wing policies. Thus we have to ask how voting for Biden will help undermine Trumpism if it has been responsible for emboldening and giving rose to it. We know, for example, many people who voted for Obama voted for Trump over Clinton. And recent polls show Biden losing popularity and likely voting support from black and Hispanic people. This is to say nothing of the loss of many working class people across the political spectrum. Dr. West has been arguing that neoliberalism is the catalyst of neofascism. If he's correct, electing Biden will simply strengthen the right wing forces that his voters are ostensibly opposed to. At what point do we begin to make a serious strategic turn to an alternative? As I have argued in my recent work, in Substack, on the humanities and social change, our political discourse suffers from a lack of imagination and understanding of how social change has often emerged from principles conviction and not merely political calculation.
All good points. I think you could make the case that voting for Biden could undermine trump based solely on labor relations board. My guess would be that Krystal and Kyle are gambling on the gains in the labor due mainly Bidens labor appointees is not worth gambling on a third party with Biden being such a weak candidate. And that further gains with labor and unions could lead to a stronger middle class labor centric movement
That's definitely a reasonable consideration. From what I have read and understand, this is one area where people on the left should be able to agree there's been some progress. What I find troubling is that the political discourse on the left around presidential elections is featuring the same scorched Earth and attending fallacies we find in the wider mainstream political discourse. There seems to be too much emphasis on trying to control or direct narratives rather than facilitate reasonable dialogue. Here again Dr. West has exemplify the best in democratic practice by refusing to paint those with differing engaging in good faith with his interlocutors on this topic. I hope that this discussion with Brye is the beginning of an ongoing dialogue about how to handle what must be recognized as a genuine political conundrum rather than a problem with an obvious solution that only fools can't see. West himself has characterized our situation as being "between a rock and a hard place."
A great idea! A very natural one, too, isn’t it? Especially, if they don’t understand what Dr. West "thinks he is doing". However, after Kulinski's recent rant on ST, which makes one think that it takes a special talent to be so dense and so disingenuous all at the same time, it may become the second entry to The Collection of Cuck Sessions. The first one being when Kyle had to sit in the corner and watch Krystal doing it with Bernie...
I like to see either the two parties destroyed or seriously weakened. There strangle hold on to power is sickening and all they seek is money and power. They do not in anyways care to be Shepard's of the citizens of our country. A system of either no parties or a system of allowing all parties is exceptable..... which will give more say to everyone who votes.
You guys think trump and biden are the same??? that is crazy to me. i told friends who cares who you vote for in 2016 (i was 18 lol) some voted trump and look where that led. his supreme court picks led to the overturn of roe v wade. biden may not fulfil all his promises but he is much better than trump.
"On so many core issues, he's against us... Joe Biden pushed for NAFTA. He repeatedly pushed for TPP. He's a supporter of the Iraq War. On all the pivotal issues of his time, he was wrong. So stop overstating how bad Trump is. The country is going to exist in four years. And understating how bad Biden is. Because its annoying. I just don't agree with the people, who are like, 'He's a fascist. He's a nazi. The country is not going to exist in 4 years.' You're hyperbolic. And you're ridiculous"
"Signing on for an affirmative Joe Biden vote mean actively voting for a politician and political movement that's most deeply held conviction is kicking you in the face"
The biggest problem with American politics is that the two parties completely control who runs and who gets coverage. It’s broken and they don’t produce candidates for the people. People should vote 3rd party to address the biggest issue in our country
"Responsibility is placed solely on the voters to suck it up and vote for Joe. I'm not buying it. The moment we say 'Don't worry Joe. We're all going to back you up'. Is the moment that the establishment sees they can do whatever they want to us, and still sell out the working class for all eternity and we're just going to take it"
"Its so clear now the whole "Vote Blue No Matter Who" line is a total con job.
Designed to quash any dissent so they can shove any neoliberal corporatist nonsense down our throats. And we are just supposed to accept it all because at least it's not Donald Trump. "
"I will never allow myself to be put in a situation where basically my only real presidential choices are shoot me and stab me... You're not going to tell me or anyone else that we now have to vote for that person"
Briahna Joy Gray CHOOSES not to do the simple math:
There were those of us Bernie supporters in 2016 who were devastated when our ideals failed to win in the Democratic primaries for various reasons. Some of us manned the F up, swallowed the bitter pill of reality and voted for Hillary over Trump in the general election. We didn't sit out on a chance to prevent a rollback of our progress on social and economic fronts.
Even if we only consider the damage caused by Trump's SCOTUS nominations (and the decades of future damage they will cause), voting Hillary would have meaningful change for millions in significant ways - FOR DECADES. So when I hear someone like Brianha say "I'm not afraid of Trump" while downplaying real material benefits and progress for working folks that a Democrat admin is providing, I can't see it as anything other than being extremely out of touch. I don't know her exact situation to say that it comes from some sort of privileged position, but it sure as heck looks that way when someone feels comfortable enough to basically say "My aim is to use my platform to get others to take a 3rd party vote gamble, one that has cost us dearly in elections all too recently, when the stakes are: The most powerful fascist our nation faces will win if we don't vote for the Dem nominee in our currently 2 part system. He is running "with a vengeance" and will use presidential power to complete his thwarted project of 2020 to throw out your and my votes and stay in power to rule. He's only gotten more radical, saying he'd "ban communists and marxists" from entering the US.
If anyone actually believes that we will get ranked choice voting, maintain our rights to anything (much less get more rights that we need) or have a democracy or bright future of addressing the climate emergency under those conditions... YOU'RE DELUSIONAL!
2016 - supported Bernie in primary, Clinton in general.
2020 - supported Bernie in the primary, Biden in the general.
2024 - Williamson is my primary choice, but the numbers indicate I will be voting Biden in the general. I hope that my primary vote could have a similar influence that our Bernie support did on Biden's admin. Every time Biden is surprisingly based, I cheer for Dark Brandon and then mumble "he could actually do more on this..) Every time I see Bernie's influence of being in his ear I get a big grin and know that was us helping to bring about real change. When Bernie doesn't have enough influence I acknowledge that I , you, Kyle, Brianha, and Bernie all failed to do enough to get Bernie and our ideals across that finish line. WE didn't have enough momentum to overcome the system.
But we can sure as hell preserve those gains and use them to build up within the existing structure until we reach a RCV or electoral college overhaul tipping point. But I will NOT be meek and quiet while voices like BJG gamble our gains away. I critique Kyle often on some details, but he was in peak form not backing down from his position where he is 100% correct.
BJG's accelerationist position will lose us everything just so we can pat ourselves on the back and lie to ourselves "My vote was more moral than yours" while the fascists take away our futures.
More needs to be said about the historical context. The greatest change agents in our nation's history were not only pragmatic strategists but also deeply convicted and courageous advocates willing to chart new territory with courage and daring. I address this in a recent piece on the abolitionists and suffragists. "What's Wrong with Moderation? What Our Feminist and Abolitionist Foremothers and Forefathers Teach Us about Social Transformation and the False Compromise Fallacy" https://jeffreynall.substack.com/p/whats-wrong-with-moderation It's also worth noting that Gandhi identified courage as the central virtue for not only living well but also for effecting political change. All of these agents of change recognized the dangers of allowing fear to become the primary rubric by which we judge our choices. Briahna, early on, identifies a fundamental logical flaw in the lesser-evil option: at what point do we begin to chart a new territory in the direction toward visionary change? How much longer is it strategically wise to continue hedging our bets while we lose more and more footing?
We lose all of the footing we've clawed for ourselves and our futures if we lose the gamble BJG is proposing we take. That gamble will give Trump, who's running with a vengeance, a chance to finish what he started.
A completely unnecessary gamble, mind you. Cornell West could have done what Bernie was doing and tried running in the Democratic primary. If he has a better shot than Bernie did then West would run in the primary and win against Biden and I'd hope there'd be enough enthusiasm and support from an eventual Biden endorsement that Trump would lose.
It would be a great opportunity to push for ranked choice voting. But as it stands now with our system even a small % voting for a 3rd party candidate will very realistically land us with a fascist in power where where a Green party that got 5% will NEVER have a shot at winning. Them's the facts.
Is there some history between Briahna and Kyle that I don’t know about? Because I’ve seen Kyle debate people wildly opposed to his policies and he’s never been this spicy 😂. I mean like y’all are 99% aligned, where’d the beef come from??
I'm so disappointed in this show. The way you have coputulated to the democratic party you are no longer an alternative to mainstream neoliberal media. I may as well watch MSNBC or CNN.
this show never pretended to be anything else -- you are thinking of breaking points, with Saagar there as well. These two are progressives.
You and me both. Honestly, I feel cheated, having been a paid subscriber to both Krystal Kyle and Friends and Breaking Points. As you said, it’s like watching diet MSNBC.
Hoping Brie helps put to bed this Maryanne delusion and the idea that any democrats deserve our votes.
I kinda doubt that. But Sabby Sabs might :)
Having seen the entire debate now and Sabby's take on it, I have to say that the above joke should be seen simply as a joke. BJG turned out to be seriously more combative (in the good sense of the word) than I expected. Whereas Sabby's commentary and counter-arguments were "curiouser" than K&K's arguments at times...
Delusional
You’re setting up straw man arguments. The aim is not to win. It’s to try and get the 5% required for Federal funding, to advance the viability of 3rd parties in future elections, to show the DNC that we won’t cave into the scare tactics and the long moribund “Lesserevilism”, i mean it’s debatable who actually is the lesser evil. It depends on your ethics or priorities. There are things called ‘Principles’ and ‘Red Lines’, which Kyle used to talk about but has seemingly never really had any after all. The duopoly has to be broken and it’s always going to be easier to accept the Dems - fake - promises than do the difficult thing. Nothing ever worth doing is easy and it never happens overnight, but it does have to start somewhere. It may take years, but it’ll be even longer if it’s continuously postponed. We have to demonstrate our convictions are real, not just talking points on a Utube channel. But you two know all this anyway, which is why you’re making such strawman arguments and establishment reasoning. The only question is why?
It seems more and more, both Krystal and Bri have become controlled opposition.
The only answer seems to be "because they are shilling for Williamson". Since she's running in the Democratic primary, they don't have much choice. The thing is, they do not really do her a service with their hardcore grift. The audience isn't that dumb. Even Kyle's one...
That is hilarious. Literally no 3rd party has ever won a federal election. Not one. There is literally no viability for it. You think 5% and a little funding is going to help battle the duopoly? Laugh. Out. Loud. The money is in donations - whether individual, corporate or dark. Do you know why the Libertarian Party has never won? Not because they didn’t have federal funding. But because they didn’t have any funding. They’re a laughing stock, as is and has always been the Green Party.
I don’t disagree on the duopoly, but the problem is you want to just toss someone at the system and flail about, giving a finger to the system like a pubescent 13-year old. What needs to happen is putting in the work and actually building something.
Like all libertarian candidates, Cornel West is just slapping his name on something in a doomed plea, but he didn’t and hasn’t done any work to actually build something. Just running is not enough. Just giving the finger isn’t enough.
The best way to corrupt something is from within. And what needs to happen is a hostile takeover of one of the parties from within. That’s not new. That’s always how American politics has worked. If you want to change something, you have to be a part of it. This 3rd party nonsense is never going to challenge the duopoly, but if you take all these little third parties and independent/leftist groups and actually organized, and ran people within the system then you could easily start taking over a party. Especially considering how in vogue “populism” is - but more importantly leftist and progressive policies.
At which point then you get to actually create law and enact those policies and break the duopoly.
It tickles and saddens me how much the left cries, yet puts so little forethought or work into process and the “how” to get things done. It’s incredible laziness and naïveté. Your convictions are my schadenfreude.
You don’t know your history. The Republican Party, before the realignment, were a “third party” or “independent” when they won for the first time.
You are using a circular argument. Like Kyle - “Third parties never stand a chance” & “I’d support them if they were viable”, without making the logical link that in order for a third party to become viable it requires support BEFORE everyone else decides to jump on board. You don’t want to do the work necessary for the break up of the duopoly, yet you claim to agree with the sentiment. Noting worthwhile happens overnight, or one election cycle. How many times was the Civil Rights act introduced before it finally passed? Do you think MLK, sat in jail, said to himself “It’s not worth it if it doesn’t happen straight away”?
"What needs to happen is putting in the work and actually building something."
And so instead of helping to build infrastructure behind a compelling third party candidate, you should definitely hold your nose and vote for Biden and surely, soon, ranked choice voting will magically appear and save us and then we can all vote third party.
"That’s always how American politics has worked." Ah yes, who can forget that amazing work George Washington did to reform the monarchy from within. Or the amazing work Abraham Lincoln did to end slavery by working within the Whig party and moving the oVErtOn WInDoW so that we could vote for slaves to be free. Truly brave of them to put aside their childish ambitions of sweeping change and instead embrace the Enlightened Incrementalist approach that has led to the amazing blossoming of today's America.
"but if you take all these little third parties and independent/leftist groups and actually organized, and ran people within the system then you could easily start taking over a party. Especially considering how in vogue “populism” is - but more importantly leftist and progressive policies."
Yes, exactly!!!!!!!!!! That was such a brilliant idea that Kyle implemented with The Squad!!! It is why we now have a 15 dollar minimum wage and Medicare for all!!!!!! Oh actually once elected they just vote in lock step with the party? Because if you try to operate as some kind of cancer within a larger organization instead of creating a separate framework under which to operate you will only ever succeed in killing the host or being absorbed into it??
The difference is that Krystal and Kyle’s point is that the goal of getting 5 percent is not worth having trump win the election. Especially considering the best thing Biden has done is the labor relations board. It’s not a straw man argument it’s real question they honest actors can have disagreements with the answer.
"The Blue No Matter Who thing is a complete con"
-- Krystal Ball 2020 on TYT
Can you accept in good faith that some lefties really do see democrats and Republicans as different even if they don't love democrats?
A great topic and guest! I'd love to see Cornel West be directly interviewed as well. He has made himself available to independent media so there's no reason not to have him present his case to audiences of this Substack and Breaking Points.
But it should be noted that there's a problem with framing the debate this way. Winning a single election isn't the only important achievement for a movement or party. Meeting the 5-percent threshold to unlock federal funds and liberating our political imagination from the chocking grasp the duopoly would be major advances worthy of our efforts.
That’s the argument but Krystal and Kyle side of it is that that 5 percent thing is not worth having trump win the presidency.
Yes, and I think that's a worthy debate that ought to be had. One where we recognize thoughtful people can have reasonable disagreements. We can discuss long term and short term aims. But we will also have to account for the fact that Trump and the Republican party have only gained support from segments of the population many on the left wish to protect from right wing policies. Thus we have to ask how voting for Biden will help undermine Trumpism if it has been responsible for emboldening and giving rose to it. We know, for example, many people who voted for Obama voted for Trump over Clinton. And recent polls show Biden losing popularity and likely voting support from black and Hispanic people. This is to say nothing of the loss of many working class people across the political spectrum. Dr. West has been arguing that neoliberalism is the catalyst of neofascism. If he's correct, electing Biden will simply strengthen the right wing forces that his voters are ostensibly opposed to. At what point do we begin to make a serious strategic turn to an alternative? As I have argued in my recent work, in Substack, on the humanities and social change, our political discourse suffers from a lack of imagination and understanding of how social change has often emerged from principles conviction and not merely political calculation.
All good points. I think you could make the case that voting for Biden could undermine trump based solely on labor relations board. My guess would be that Krystal and Kyle are gambling on the gains in the labor due mainly Bidens labor appointees is not worth gambling on a third party with Biden being such a weak candidate. And that further gains with labor and unions could lead to a stronger middle class labor centric movement
That's definitely a reasonable consideration. From what I have read and understand, this is one area where people on the left should be able to agree there's been some progress. What I find troubling is that the political discourse on the left around presidential elections is featuring the same scorched Earth and attending fallacies we find in the wider mainstream political discourse. There seems to be too much emphasis on trying to control or direct narratives rather than facilitate reasonable dialogue. Here again Dr. West has exemplify the best in democratic practice by refusing to paint those with differing engaging in good faith with his interlocutors on this topic. I hope that this discussion with Brye is the beginning of an ongoing dialogue about how to handle what must be recognized as a genuine political conundrum rather than a problem with an obvious solution that only fools can't see. West himself has characterized our situation as being "between a rock and a hard place."
I don’t think the way in which this debate is framed is an accident.
A great idea! A very natural one, too, isn’t it? Especially, if they don’t understand what Dr. West "thinks he is doing". However, after Kulinski's recent rant on ST, which makes one think that it takes a special talent to be so dense and so disingenuous all at the same time, it may become the second entry to The Collection of Cuck Sessions. The first one being when Kyle had to sit in the corner and watch Krystal doing it with Bernie...
Fuck em up bri
I like to see either the two parties destroyed or seriously weakened. There strangle hold on to power is sickening and all they seek is money and power. They do not in anyways care to be Shepard's of the citizens of our country. A system of either no parties or a system of allowing all parties is exceptable..... which will give more say to everyone who votes.
You guys think trump and biden are the same??? that is crazy to me. i told friends who cares who you vote for in 2016 (i was 18 lol) some voted trump and look where that led. his supreme court picks led to the overturn of roe v wade. biden may not fulfil all his promises but he is much better than trump.
Kyle Kulinski on Joe Biden:
"On so many core issues, he's against us... Joe Biden pushed for NAFTA. He repeatedly pushed for TPP. He's a supporter of the Iraq War. On all the pivotal issues of his time, he was wrong. So stop overstating how bad Trump is. The country is going to exist in four years. And understating how bad Biden is. Because its annoying. I just don't agree with the people, who are like, 'He's a fascist. He's a nazi. The country is not going to exist in 4 years.' You're hyperbolic. And you're ridiculous"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH2uhKxDnnw&t=1s
"Signing on for an affirmative Joe Biden vote mean actively voting for a politician and political movement that's most deeply held conviction is kicking you in the face"
-- Krystal Ball 2020
The biggest problem with American politics is that the two parties completely control who runs and who gets coverage. It’s broken and they don’t produce candidates for the people. People should vote 3rd party to address the biggest issue in our country
"Responsibility is placed solely on the voters to suck it up and vote for Joe. I'm not buying it. The moment we say 'Don't worry Joe. We're all going to back you up'. Is the moment that the establishment sees they can do whatever they want to us, and still sell out the working class for all eternity and we're just going to take it"
-- (Vintage) Krystal Ball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peaZUuvec0k
"Its so clear now the whole "Vote Blue No Matter Who" line is a total con job.
Designed to quash any dissent so they can shove any neoliberal corporatist nonsense down our throats. And we are just supposed to accept it all because at least it's not Donald Trump. "
-- (Vintage) Krystal Ball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peaZUuvec0k
"I will never allow myself to be put in a situation where basically my only real presidential choices are shoot me and stab me... You're not going to tell me or anyone else that we now have to vote for that person"
-- (Vintage) Krystal Ball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peaZUuvec0k
Briahna Joy Gray CHOOSES not to do the simple math:
There were those of us Bernie supporters in 2016 who were devastated when our ideals failed to win in the Democratic primaries for various reasons. Some of us manned the F up, swallowed the bitter pill of reality and voted for Hillary over Trump in the general election. We didn't sit out on a chance to prevent a rollback of our progress on social and economic fronts.
Even if we only consider the damage caused by Trump's SCOTUS nominations (and the decades of future damage they will cause), voting Hillary would have meaningful change for millions in significant ways - FOR DECADES. So when I hear someone like Brianha say "I'm not afraid of Trump" while downplaying real material benefits and progress for working folks that a Democrat admin is providing, I can't see it as anything other than being extremely out of touch. I don't know her exact situation to say that it comes from some sort of privileged position, but it sure as heck looks that way when someone feels comfortable enough to basically say "My aim is to use my platform to get others to take a 3rd party vote gamble, one that has cost us dearly in elections all too recently, when the stakes are: The most powerful fascist our nation faces will win if we don't vote for the Dem nominee in our currently 2 part system. He is running "with a vengeance" and will use presidential power to complete his thwarted project of 2020 to throw out your and my votes and stay in power to rule. He's only gotten more radical, saying he'd "ban communists and marxists" from entering the US.
If anyone actually believes that we will get ranked choice voting, maintain our rights to anything (much less get more rights that we need) or have a democracy or bright future of addressing the climate emergency under those conditions... YOU'RE DELUSIONAL!
2016 - supported Bernie in primary, Clinton in general.
2020 - supported Bernie in the primary, Biden in the general.
2024 - Williamson is my primary choice, but the numbers indicate I will be voting Biden in the general. I hope that my primary vote could have a similar influence that our Bernie support did on Biden's admin. Every time Biden is surprisingly based, I cheer for Dark Brandon and then mumble "he could actually do more on this..) Every time I see Bernie's influence of being in his ear I get a big grin and know that was us helping to bring about real change. When Bernie doesn't have enough influence I acknowledge that I , you, Kyle, Brianha, and Bernie all failed to do enough to get Bernie and our ideals across that finish line. WE didn't have enough momentum to overcome the system.
But we can sure as hell preserve those gains and use them to build up within the existing structure until we reach a RCV or electoral college overhaul tipping point. But I will NOT be meek and quiet while voices like BJG gamble our gains away. I critique Kyle often on some details, but he was in peak form not backing down from his position where he is 100% correct.
BJG's accelerationist position will lose us everything just so we can pat ourselves on the back and lie to ourselves "My vote was more moral than yours" while the fascists take away our futures.
More needs to be said about the historical context. The greatest change agents in our nation's history were not only pragmatic strategists but also deeply convicted and courageous advocates willing to chart new territory with courage and daring. I address this in a recent piece on the abolitionists and suffragists. "What's Wrong with Moderation? What Our Feminist and Abolitionist Foremothers and Forefathers Teach Us about Social Transformation and the False Compromise Fallacy" https://jeffreynall.substack.com/p/whats-wrong-with-moderation It's also worth noting that Gandhi identified courage as the central virtue for not only living well but also for effecting political change. All of these agents of change recognized the dangers of allowing fear to become the primary rubric by which we judge our choices. Briahna, early on, identifies a fundamental logical flaw in the lesser-evil option: at what point do we begin to chart a new territory in the direction toward visionary change? How much longer is it strategically wise to continue hedging our bets while we lose more and more footing?
We lose all of the footing we've clawed for ourselves and our futures if we lose the gamble BJG is proposing we take. That gamble will give Trump, who's running with a vengeance, a chance to finish what he started.
A completely unnecessary gamble, mind you. Cornell West could have done what Bernie was doing and tried running in the Democratic primary. If he has a better shot than Bernie did then West would run in the primary and win against Biden and I'd hope there'd be enough enthusiasm and support from an eventual Biden endorsement that Trump would lose.
It would be a great opportunity to push for ranked choice voting. But as it stands now with our system even a small % voting for a 3rd party candidate will very realistically land us with a fascist in power where where a Green party that got 5% will NEVER have a shot at winning. Them's the facts.
Is there some history between Briahna and Kyle that I don’t know about? Because I’ve seen Kyle debate people wildly opposed to his policies and he’s never been this spicy 😂. I mean like y’all are 99% aligned, where’d the beef come from??
Omg I just saw Kyle post the whole segment and “spicy” is the exact word he used in the title😂😂 y’all gotta spill on the backstory here