I don’t know where else to plug this idea, but would you two try to bring on Beau of the fifth column? Anti authoritarian left who was very much engulfed in the authoritarian right for a while(ex-military and cop trainer). I think he would fall into the libertarian left, but has a cool temper and ability to see perspectives that rarely occur to me.
I was/am a Bernie-or-bust voter. Voted green both 2016 and 2020. You can try to tell me how much of a lesser evil Hilary/Biden was/is than Trump but 1) they still evil and 2) more importantly, I disagree and this is why: the Democrats have moved so far right since Clinton and the liberal voters and media “go back to brunch” and go to sleep every.single.time under Democratic administrations and really harmful things get passed that wouldn’t get passed under Republican leadership because of the blowback and uproar that’s present when there’s a GOP president.
As Thomas Frank spells out, if you look at NAFTA, ‘94 Crime Bill, Balanced Budget, [resulting from] gutting of the Welfare system, bank & telecom deregulation for Clinton, and as Chris Hedges shows, amongst other things, Obama’s failure to prosecute Wall Street, further the class divide, his overseeing of the decaying of middle class wealth via home ownership, expansion of the security/surveillance state, prosecuting whistleblowers, TPP…these are things that would have been VOCIFEROUSLY fought by liberals if attempted under Republican leadership, perhaps to the point of curtailing some of them.
So spare me the ghouls of the blue team being the lesser of 2 evils. I’ll pass on the 40 year plan Vaush is talking about and abandoning principles when it comes to voting.
Agreed Ivan, why should anybody listen to Vaush's political commentary if his plan is to vote blue no matter who, wait until environmental collapse by 2060, then create a movement from that? I don't mind if that is his pesimistic guess of what the reality will be, I tend to agree, but it sounded like that was his actual prime strategy moving forward?!
And the stuff he said about US sanctions on anybody who doesn't satisfy US labour demands, like my god, just awful and so concerning that he can't see what a terrible idea that would be and how biased it would end up being in implementation. Total US imperialism with a nice dose of Russia and China warmongering! Hard Pass!
Will not be sussing his channel, didn't bring anything of value to the table for me...
Bernie support drop during the Trump presidency. The whole blowback and uproar that happens when there is a GOP president isn't making people go to the left, it's making people go Democrat. Every liberal won't think about solutions because orange man is the problem.
So the question is, you want people to move to the left, or you want people to move democrat.
Dude it's fine if you don't want border cages, voting for better border cages will still be more aligned with your vision than voting for Trump, or abstaining.
Seriously, the only problem is: The more the GOP is in power, less power the Justice Democrates had historicaly (it's funny to say historicaly with recent history but it's acurate).
Obama sucked and every single liberal "orange man badding" wanted him back. but the more Obama was in power, the more people wanted Bernie. That's it
@Arthur I do not see where you get causation out of this correlation. How do you account for the potential, not even the assumption, just the potential that by choosing lesser evils you are ensuring that a worse set of evils will be your choice in the subsequent election cycle? IF that was happening, what would you do about it? How would you escape that perpetual drain? When would you know that was the situation you were facing?
Personally, my litmus for that situation is definitely surpassed BECAUSE the lesser evils on the table are pieces of shit that I would never trust to do anything right. They are all murderous human garbage by their past positions and actions. I don't go trusting a devil I know. I don't go trusting a devil with power at all. When I see the lesser evil choices as people who could be descent human beings with opinions that are different from mine, that's when I would accept this notion of picking one over the other, and NEVER over some ideological colors crated for unfounded arbitrary buckets of issues that are defined by nothing of real substance.
1. You're operating on the assumption that the next time the lesser devil would be worse. Even though, and I can't stress this enough, during the Trump presidency less people wanted Bernie than during the Obama presidency, his popularity fall. It's true that this is correlation, but it's more substantiated than "I refuse to vote for Biden cause the democrats will absolutely not move further right when they lose voters from the left"
2. If indeed I had to choose the lesser of 2 evils again, and they're worse options then today, I would pick the lesser of 2 evils again. If the Democrats are trying to move to the right and they would pull this trick to keep moving the Overtown Window. They winning or not wouldn't change the fact that the overtown window would move right. The problem is the current US system that avoids plurality of political opinions and reinforce voter apathy.
3. I sympathize with your disgust of having to pick the lesser of two evils, but to that I'll ask. If you had to choose between Hitler and Trump. Would you vote for Trump? Would you abstain? It's in the deepest blue states that the bigger progressive wins are happening. You need to vote for Trump if you want to reach Bernie one day. Because when Hitler is in power, everyone will pray for the better administration of Trump. But put Trump in power, and people will want a better candidate than him.
4. Voter apathy is by far the thing that maintain these ghouls in power. Most of the country is progressive, and yet the progressives are the ones which don't even try to vote, can't you see that with a 2 party system this means they aren't really a population with voting power? we need progressives voting blue so the next blue can be more progressive. if only 1% of the country were active voters, both the democrat and the republicans would ignore the 99%, we already see this happening.
1. You're going to have to source that full load for me. Barely anyone knew who Bernie was until the 2016 election. Regardless, the point you are opposing is not affected by Bernie or any progressive's popularity. If you elect a piece of shit, those who put him there as your lesser evil option learn NOTHING and do it again. Look at the downward trend of dipshits used as lesser evil arguments to both sides.
What the fuck don't you understand about me holding zero trust in the Democrats? I give NO fucks if they stop going right or not. With a third of abstain votes written in, a THIRD PARTY candidate will prove by the data that they are electable, then the real push from a real third party candidate who is not a piece of shit will be run.
If you have ZERO limitations of how much of a disgustingly batshit dishonest candidate your lesser evil pick would have to be before you said fuck it all and abstain to make your point, then they WILL NEVER STOP GETTING WORSE. They have no reason to. You rewarded them a leadership position in spite of being in no way qualified to have the integrity needed to lead the country.
And btw, FUCK the overton window! It's imaginary rationalized garbage. Left and right, liberal and conservative, these are false dichotomies that represent NO ONE. They are arbitrary buckets of issues which at best define people by which bucket their most important issue happens to identify them as. It's garbage meant to distract us and divide us and prevent real change.
3. Nope! Fuck Hitler and FUCK Trump! I'd never vote for either of them. If they were the only choices, I'd write in "ABSTAIN" and advise others to do so as well. Fuck them both right up their sociopathic asses. If you vote for them, even if you rationalize it like a schmuck, YOU PUT THEM IN POWER. YOU DID THAT. Take some goddamned responsibility for your choice. Assuming you voted for Biden, that means it's your goddamned fault we can't yet get out of war. Our weapons used to kill people in the hands of Saudi's and Israel, that's on you because you didn't put your fucking foot down and demand it. Go vote, but write in "abstain" if you want to make a difference and avoid blood on your hands.
4. Voting to abstain is not voter apathy. It's taking the time to make a vote, showing that you are there at the ready when a candidate is worth more than the spit under your shoe. By a campaign of abstaining, you also encourage people to vote on other issues besides the presidency that they believe in. The only way out of all of this mess is through solidarity. You will never get the truly apathetic or uninspired to come out to vote with pure dishonest garbage offered to represent them. They aren't voting because they aren't suckers willing to waste their time on a scam.
TBH, if you managed to convince me that the nonviolent vote to collectively write-in abstain would not work, then the only answer worth considering to break this corruption would have to be violence, plain and simple. We can't get shit-for-brains politicians to vote to fix the voting system that got them seated. We can't even trust the progressives who won to do it. We have to take our own action. Sitting on your ass and repeating the same stupid strategy will get you nowhere.
What do you mean barely anyone knew Bernie Sanders, he was the most popular Senator of the Country. Literally the most famous non president. About the stats. Biden got double the votes that Bernie did, with a 26 point lead. Hillary won against Bernie with only a 8 point lead.
Please vote for Trump if Hitler goes agains't him, the democratic process don't care about abstain voters, they just don't.
4. TRUUUUU, Bernie had a huge suport amongst non-voters! Bernie Suporters didn't wanna vote tho... Which is why he didn't won the primary even tho polls showed him winning. Fuck lazy people...
The only point I have is that the more the GOP wins, the worse the devils of Democrats become, if you can't get left leaning votes, you sure can get right leaning votes.
Yeah, "most famous senator" was never really a high bar for most people, so you'll need a source to make this point about who's had more of a following to me.
Biden didn't have any lead in 2020 until he made back room deals to be endorsed by the dropouts who were only there to stop Bernie in the first place. The Dem primary does not reflect the people's views. It's a rigged system that's more rigged than the general. The fact that Bernie was leading before he was ganged up on to take him out of the running is evidence that he stood a better chance against Trump.
Biden risked Trump over Bernie... But you saw Biden as a lesser evil to Trump anyway... Think about that one.
The democratic process doesn't care about claims that have no rational justification. You're only ignoring my argument and not countering it in any valid way. It's just so because you say so.
People who didn't vote in the general and supported Bernie aren't lazy. They felt defeated that he didn't win the primary. My argument is that IF Bernie told them to come write in "ABSTAIN" if they didn't like Biden enough to vote for him, then that would have made a better turnout. They don't even know it's an option. You EVEN would have some who changed their minds at the last minute and voted for Biden after they got there. There is NO downside to telling people who feel defeated to go to the polls anyway and vote their conscience to abstain.
And don't get me wrong, my argument isn't antithetical to yours. If I had a platform, I would have said that if you don't think Biden is too big a piece of shit to vote for, then you should vote for him. I know he's too big a bloodmoney racketteering dumbshit in my book, but that's me. I'll abstain, you vote for a pedophile clown you can get behind. That's not apathy, that's solidarity among positions that strongly differ.
I am chill, just passionate. Get back to me when you have a clear and consistent definition for left and right. I'll take people on their issues individually and focus on the not-so-black-and-white reality to form solutions until then. The GOP is not your actual enemy. Your enemy is every politician who's willing to lie to you.
Indeed. You know what would happen if 1/3 of voters wrote in their true position of "ABSTAIN" for an election? A better third party or good candidate would realize they have a chance and run hard in the next election.
More than a third of the US already don't vote... actually, 47% didn't vote on the 2016 election.
Third parties don't work in the current paradigm, infiltrate the current ones or lose all voting power.
If you want to abolish the electoral college, it would be easier if you pick democrats, since there will never be a republican victory again if this happens.
Remember that the closest shot to abolish the electoral college depends on the supreme court deciding upon the legality of the National Popular Vote Compact. And trust me, you don't want trump picking the judges at the Supreme Court.
There isn't a single argument on the planet that would ever convince me to go back to voting for a Democratic candidate for president. Ever. And if all of us had stuck to our principles, we'd have Bernie Sanders as president today. I'm DONE being bullied or shamed or spoken down to as if I'm stupid about how politics "works," by people who keep the status quo in power. Fuck that noise.
Good, then you no longer have any right to complain or speak about political matters ever again. If you choose to tune out by not voting, you're a useless coward and should be shunned from polite society.
Who the hell said I'm not voting? People like you don't deserve to live in a democracy where everyone's voice matters. You're the reason we keep getting screwed. GFY.
You just said you're not voting Democrat, which either means you're not voting or going third party (the same thing). Or maybe you've decided to vote Republican in the future? What happens in 2024 when it's Harris vs. some Qanon nutbag?
Seeing Vaush and Kyle converse is a dream come true. Two lefty figures that helped pull out the right-wing tendencies and that got me interested in politics!
With a long conservative legacy and being the candidate of "no substantial change" Biden had no hope in hell of getting my vote. Healthcare's my redline and that's all he had to convince me he would deliver. Instead, he shrugged it off as instinctively a Republican would during the campaign.
I don’t like Vaush, but I do appreciate Krystal and Kyle’s efforts to have a respectful & civil conversation with him and other left wing commentators and ask critical questions. There is one issue I wish they would question him on though, and I haven’t yet seen it addressed.
I’ve watched nearly every Secular Talk video for the last three years, so I know Kyle doesn’t like to wade into ‘culture war’ issues, but I would argue that this goes beyond culture wars.
The very first video on Vaush’s channel at the time I found him was him was one in which he responded to JK Rowling’s very thoughtful and carefully written essay on transgender issues - which he wildly smeared as her “TERF Manifesto” in the title, and then went on to mischaracterize in the actual video. I have watched more of Vaush since then, and on this particular issue, he has made his position very clear: transwomen are women, they should be fully treated as such in all respects, and any objection to this statement is simply being reactionary and hateful.
Now seeing as I’m a woman who observes biological reality (there are two sexes, and you cannot change from one to the other), and seeing as I do not believe in the concept of a magical innate “gender identity,” and seeing as I’m highly skeptical of experimental treatments being carried out in the name of “gender transition,” I guess I’ll be called a TERF too. As a female person who will be directly impacted by legislation like the Equality Act, which would allow males who “self identify” as females to claim discrimination if they are not allowed full access to female only spaces, this is an extremely important issue to me. For other many women I know, this totally alienates us from the left, which is collectively behaving like religious, science-denying cult members on this issue.
That is my main problem with Vaush. I don’t agree with people unfairly smearing him, and I am happy to give credit where it’s due and say I agree with Vaush on most issues. But this issue affects all women’s material reality, and so it’s way too big for me personally to ignore.
In SecularTalk’s video responding to the criticism on this episode, Kyle described Vaush as “honest” and says he and Krystal asked all the important critical questions. It is NOT honest to deny material biological reality, which affects women as a class. It is dishonest for Vaush to say that males who identify with feminine stereotypes literally become females, and to encourage his huge audience in believing that females are bigots for wanting to uphold and defend our sex based rights. And I know Kyle doesn’t care about my criticism, but I do think that is a question worth pushing back on.
I have no ill will towards trans people. Dress/behave/call yourself whatever you like. What I take issue with is the left’s collective denial of material reality and pushing for legislation that will negatively impact females as a class.
In the US, some states already allow males to enter spaces that are rightfully segregated by sex simply by declaring that they “feel like women” (whatever that means.)
For instance, in Washington state, a male rapist and serial killer of female victims has successfully transferred to a women’s prison by saying he identifies as a female. In Connecticut, my state, high school boys who say they feel like girls have been allowed to compete on the girls teams, despite the observable biological advantage males have in terms of physical strength. In most sports, the competition will never be truly fair. Most male athletes will always outclass even the best female athletes. Identity doesn’t change physiology.
For an example outside the US, the Vancouver Rape Relief & Women’s Shelter was the target of a harassment campaign (they were vandalized and had a dead rat nailed to their door, among other things) and lost their state funding because they would not house males, nor allow males to work directly with female rape victims seeking help from the shelter. This decision was made to safeguard the safety and dignity of victims of violent sexual crime, but it was portrayed as hateful to males who identify as women.
The Equality Act, if it passes Congress, would enable this sort of thing to happen across the US, because it forbids discrimination on the grounds of “gender identity.” The concept of gender identity is that everyone has a magical innate gender soul, separate from biological reality, and that this gender soul determines what you really are. I find this to be religious thinking, and I also think it’s dangerous for men and women alike to be encouraged to deny reality and become lifelong medical patients just because they fit in with some behavioral stereotypes of the opposite sex.
As for how this relates to Vaush, anyone who listens regularly to him will come across this topic, since he is clear on his stance that women with my views are ‘hateful TERFs.’ Pretty hard to unite the left when so many women are alienated and basically forced out from it for refusing to accept magical thinking.
There's where you have it wrong. Bathrooms, prisons, and the like are not rightly segregated by sex.
Prisons do not need to be about punishment at all, and should rightly be about reform. Most of the requirement to combine people at all in a prison is foolish and unnecessary. Prisons need to be reformed and replaced by mental health institutions, because the human behavior that got them there is a matter of human psychology. They are a joke, otherwise, so, there's really nothing to be said about how they are self defeating when an exception is made to let someone avoid being around the more violent offenders if they can.
As for bathrooms, you don't need to share a space for disposing of waste from your body. You don't even need to hide it at all, but even assuming that you somehow needed to protect yourself from the exposure of your specialized snowflake aspects of human anatomy, there's never been any need to make restrooms communal and shared, regardless of any specific sex that would use them.
If you optimized for the space saving designs that these spaces are going for when they make them communal and then stop giving a shit about what anyone looks like going in, then you could optimize for actual safety by having men and women watching over the actions that take place in those spaces. Most men are trustworthy. If it's a question of strength, there will almost always be enough men and women to control any unwanted human behavior in every other coed space, so why not a bathroom?
Finally, there's the problems, or conundrums that occur when you try to separate people by sex or gender at all. You don't just have transpeople to consider. You have intersex people as well.
Imagine you grew up believing you were a girl your whole life, only to find out to everyone's surprise, including your parents and your doctor, that you are a genetic male? You discover this at the age of 14 when you get tested because you tell your doctor that you still haven't had your period. Which bathroom do you use in that case by your standards? Don't give me the garbage about them being a small exception. Small numbers don't take away the fact that people are being treated inhumanely or are oppressed. You want to make a rule that works fairly, then you gotta cover everybody, including intersex.
What's more, transpeople have a reasonable chance of actually being intersex biologically on a level. Your body develops sexual characteristics based on your hormones. That's a chemical cocktail that determines if you have testicles or ovaries. That same chemical cocktail develops your genitals at a different stage of development than it develops your brain. Imagine if transpeople legitimately had a change in their hormonal cocktail while their brains were first developing? If any instincts or ways of thinking are associated with sex biologically, then they are legitimately intersex by that account of how it occurred. They would have developed the genitals of one sex but developed the instincts and thinking that would make them feel feel like another.
By all means, ignore the dumb fucks who shame you for not knowing these biology facts never taught in school and just questioning the situation. Update yourself on the fact that when you look at the truth of biology, it's never simple. Life itself is NOT SIMPLE. Try studying it if you don't believe me.
If you still don't follow, then take a look at images of Buck Angel and Blair White and tell me which bathroom you want them to shit in and which prison you think they belong in if they broke the law.
You keep pretending that declaring yourself as trans is something you just do and it open all doors for you.
If people who aren't trans are getting trans treatment this is only a condemnation of the institutions at hand. Not trans people.
Also stop with the weird fixation on Transwoman. We know you don't care about Transman so just say trans people and we'll connect the dots.
1. If they are at puberty blockers they won't have the physical upper-hand on cis people, and if they decide on hormonal transition, they will experience a female puberty, resulting in the same physical development of their muscles as of a cis woman. All institutions of prestige have those requirements for trans-people in sports, and it's the institution fault if they don't.
2. Trans-woman are more at danger than the inverse. If you wanna talk about segregated spaces like restroom, they are far more likely to be targets of agression than the inverse. If you wanna talk about abuse shelters *they are far more likely to be victims of abuse than cis people*.
3. Stop pretending you can't change gender either, you're just wrong and everyone who knows what they're talking about disagree.
4. The biological reality of sex doesn't need to be confused with the sociological reality of gender. Since you don't like the term TERF, I'll be less precise with what you are you entitled prick.
Is there anything wrong with just stating the clear X=X statement here? Transwomen are transwomen. Where and why does the conversation need to go beyond that? I don't know a transwoman to have ever taken issue with being called a transwoman. If someone calls a transwoman a woman, then why not just grant them the charity of assuming they meant transwoman or ask for clarification if it's confusing?
Hey Steve, just sent a longer reply in another comment, but a quick note here - I agree with you. However, observing that there is any difference between transwomen and women is considered transphobic in the wider discourse on the left. This is how we are led into situations like those that I outlined in my earlier comment to you.
The only acceptable mode of thinking in leftwing discourse is that a woman is “anyone with the gender identity of woman,” and likewise for men. Under that definition, it is discriminatory to deny access to sex-segregated spaces, services, etc. to someone on the basis of his material biological reality, if he says he “identifies” differently.
The conversation must happen, because not only is this dangerous religious thinking, but laws are already being quietly passed in the US that support this fantasy. And unfortunately, it’s largely the left pushing these arguments, and it needs to be pushed back on by other leftists.
On the first paragraph, I totally get that, but where I might disagree with you is that it's not a worthwhile battle to pick until you are calling them out for outright censorship. Let them be triggered by your choice words. If they try to cancel you in some way, that's when you fight back. Otherwise, it's just not worth it IMHO.
If it does come to getting cancelled, there's a great video by ThereminTrees on Dogma that I think highlights all of that problem completely. Try adding this quote by him to your arsenal:
"One form of misrepresentation is exaggeration. If our opponent makes a moderate statement of fact that includes a careful qualification and we ignore that qualification and attribute our opponent with a far more extreme view than they've actually expressed, we haven't addressed what's been said in any valid way.” - ThereminTrees, How Dogma Pollutes Discourse
I responded to your other post on the actual situation regarding biology, so I'll await your response to that. I, for one love having that conversation with people who are genuinely concerned. It's a huge hit to your metaphysical reality to even know about these facts of biology vs the social constructs our society formed without biology as their inspiration. Anyone who says it's obvious, never actually thought about it.
Force the vote was about policy, political stategy 101, and revealing fraud progressives, not dems per se. Vash is so very very wrong on that. he dems co-op progressives, it was 100% the right course to go. Even in failure, it reveals. Vash had me going until FTV came up...Dominated by bad faith actors in the establishment...talk is cheap, action is what matters
hahaha. Forcethevote was nothing more than a demagogue and his sycophantic base of ideologically underdeveloped kids attacking people who disagreed with them over a bloody STRATEGY. The entire thing was beyond juvenile and only exposed how incredibly YOUNG and ignorant the American left really is on political strategy and what it takes to actually win. Hint: attacking your ideological allies because they disagree with you on a stupid strategy that could have backfired *horrendously* is NOT how you win.
uh, sure, Vaush, TYT, Sam S, etc, are juvenile/young/foolish...but It's actually worse than that. DSA, squad, purported to use said strategy to get elected, but then refuse to fight. Indeed, how not to win.
Your ilk, Bob, certainly isn't an ally.
Probably just a troll though, Vaush's hyporissy from early interview to late interview is impossible to miss. He does exactly what he condemns & laments earlier...
Your perception of them "refusing to fight" is born from the mouth of a demagogue you have an emotional connection to (Dore) and not from anything approaching the realities of the American political system. When they refuse to "play the game," you people call them weak and useless, but then when they actually play the game you call them corrupt and ineffective. This is called a circular firing squad, and there is only ONE faction on the left constantly engaging in this behaviour as opposed to ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK to build coalitions and collectively get things done. You and "your ilk" are shit-disturbers with nothing of value to offer the American left.
Just watched the secular talk video 'Krystal and Saagar's goodbye video PULLED...' and unsubbed from the Hill and joined this substack. Bari Weiss is trash.
I loved this ep. Subscribed to Vaush today, with a set of nudges I would like to press all of the speakers on. You were SPOT ON, Vaush and Kyle, when pointing out that a lack of charity is the problem. However, Vaush, showed a lack of charity in how he dealt with Jimmy Dore. Jimmy does fuck up a lot, but the back and fourth on who is insincere is both not unfounded, while at the same time, we know from human psychology that most people are sincere about the views they claim to have.
Things got heated on force the vote. I think Kyle should have had some convos with Jimmy directly and recorded them because they are the perfect two to speak together on both being charitable while holding people accountable. AOC didn't only drop force the vote. She tweeted that it was a hopeless endeavor and proceeded to do favors for Pelosi. On TYT, Cenk argued that you are a fool to be a part of force the vote and then flipped his position on the general topic right after it was too late, all while claiming that the difference in his views with Jimmy were about the timing, still not explaining what justifies the right timing or not.
Personally, I can be wrong, but I think Cenk is sincerely a fool on that issue and AOC has shown many signs of caving to the pressure of falling in line rather than fighting, so, a fool as well IMHO who has had the time and care to think about her options, but still chose a horrible strategy. UNLESS AOC has a literal gun to her head, she's trying to make psychopathic murderers her friends by caving to their demands at every turn.
Jimmy doesn't strategize much, but his criticism to that effect was valid. If I had a platform, I would pressure AOC to fight harder and I would show her how it's done. She and Cenk both need to be held responsible for their bad decisions. AOC did not say force the vote was a valid idea she disagreed with. She claimed it was a hopeless effort and didn't explain why or how at all. I can parse out that she is effectively selling out by her actions because there is clearly a lot she is not telling us about her thinking, and STILL hold some charity that she could mean well by it in the end. Still yet, I would shame her as I would shame a close friend for not telling us what the fuck she's thinking when she drags her feet on ANY issue.
We don't have any time to waste. Also, Vaush, you don't need to wait for alternative voting to kick in. Tell people to write in "ABSTAIN" for a position when both people running are clear pieces of shit. 1. This will encourage the nonvoters to go to the polls, because they have a choice that suits their views. 2. If enough people do this, then the polls will not be able to write off those votes as crazy people. "Abstain" should already be a required option if this were any reliable study of what the people want. As long as we have a chance to deliver a middle finger to all of the shitty candidates running, more people would vote and more of the true wisdom of the crowd will come out of it.
Jimmy Dore is the single biggest useful idiot on youtube. It's not even close. His entire channel fosters APATHY - and since apathy is the #1 problem in American leftist politics, this makes Jimmu Dore a disingenuous clown. Forcethevote was a perfectly fine idea, until Jimmy Dore decided to make it a litmus test against other lefties, his audience in turn becoming vipers running around endlessly attacking their ideological allies over a f*cking strategy! How childishly embarrassing. Jimmy simply has nothing of value to offer the American left, and *everything* of value to offer the esatablishment Democrats. Believe me when I say this, if there is one political figure on youtube that Pelosi and her people can get behind? It's Jimmy Dore. The man divides the left FAR FAR FAR better than anybody in power could ever hope to accomplish.
At what point in the battle do you stop listening to the guy telling you to hold your ground? It doesn't seem to be before the opposing has already run you through. Someone refusing to ever fight seems like quite a useful idiot indeed.
Pushing disingenuous narratives that do nothing but harm and divide the left in America is the definition of being a useful idiot. But he doesn't care because he ONLY cares about money, and it's quite lucrative to "play" the outsider in the current political system - right-wingers do it ALL THE TIME. You can try to laughably explain how Dore is "fighting the good fight" by pushing endless swaths of apathy onto his ideologically underdeveloped audience... but I will then tell you that you are wrong and need to stfu. He (and others like him such as Niko House and Kim Iverson) are the absolute WORST aspects of the left in every conceivable way. These people are same'ism grifting dumpster fires of the highest order.
Jimmy might be an idiot, but he's not disingenuous. He's intellectually lazy, but he's authentic. When someone shows you who they really are, believe them.
A lot of the people he has called out deserve it. Some of them, like Sam Harris, didn't. If any of them tried to explain their side of the story like Harris did, I'd side with them if it made any sense at all. As it is, TYT and AOC, for example, are rightfully being called out for dragging their feet by him and they have no explanations as of yet to give. TYT just counters with emotional outrage and AOC with silence when she should be exposing the backroom deals being offered to her for her cooperation with Pelosi.
As I say all the time, when Jimmy says he would sell out in the drop of a hat for enough money... believe him. That's not a joke. Maybe he has not sold out in the traditional sense, but he's fostered an apathetic audience of doomer children and he does nothing but attack and divide to maintain that audience. That's selling out his morals, in my opinion, and hurts the left as a whole. Tell me again why anybody should listen to this man? He simply cannot comprehend that our leftist allies in power ALSO have a game to play, and that game sometimes appears like they're being agreeable towards people he and his audience hates. This is called playing the game. When they DO play, they're corrupted and sold out. When they do NOT play, they are weak and useless. Which is it? Can't be both.
Saying is not the same as showing. I'll be ready to shit on him if he does sell out.
Could you be more ironically enraged over people's actions that you label apathy? Taking action is not apathy, but you seem to think it is, and that pisses you off. How would someone genuinely apathetic even get to live in your head so comfortably?
Gonna need an example of where Jimmy ever changed his position to "fighting the elite class hard makes you a sellout."
I'm still pissed off about this dumb interview 5 days after listening. Vaush hates Dore because he's just like him. Both impute from a disagreements that the other is a bad faith actor: Sanders, AOC and TYT in Dore's case, Dore, myself and many others in Vaush's case. Vaush in this interview at the same time denounced such behavior, even though it's fundamental to his brand. He's a hypocrite projecting onto Dore.
I think it's a weakness in Dore's method but at least he's going after the right targets. Like Bill Hicks or George Carlin, I enjoy the humor and passion. Vaush otoh is a pompous bore.
When your entire goal as a channel is to create "non-voters," push people to completely useless third-party efforts, all while directly ATTACKING the concept of Democrat reform... you're a grifter. And a piece of sh*t.
I explained why voting "abstain" isn't useless. Read a book if you don't agree. Expecting Democrat reform while voting for a piece of shit is the only wasted vote. Not making any money here, so not a grifter.
Voting abstain is useless, and is exactly what the powers that be want. Once you come to realize that the establishment on BOTH sides want apathetic/non-voters, it all falls into place. They want you to abstain. They want you to tune out, go watch Netflix, and never pay attention to politics ever again. ESPECIALLY if you're a leftist, this is very much what they want. "Expecting Democrat reform" is only possible with enough leftist Democrats in power - which should be the *only* goal of the collective left at this point. Literally nothing else matters because without Democrat reform, we're all fucked eventually. Period.
Oh good... let's see, where is there media telling people to vote abstain? Where is that campaign run by the elite class exactly?
Voting to abstain is not apathy. Read a book. Learn the reasons why abstain is used historically. Not going to the polls, aka not voting, that's apathy.
If I had a platform, I could get an army of people going to the polls just to write "abstain" and that will not go unnoticed by the powers that be. 1/3 already don't vote. 1/3 proving they are ready to vote for a candidate who earns their vote, that's proof of concept for a third party to win.
You're missing the damn point. Let me repeat this very simple fact: NO third-party will ever, and I mean *ever* become even remotely viable until one of the two major parties currently in control of the entire system from the media on downwards decide to reform their own rules and/or enact laws in support of third-parties. PERIOD. Jimmy *knows this* which is why his rhetoric attacking Democrat reform while pushing for a people's party is disingenuous virtue signalling nonsense. HIS play is absolutely and unequivocally impossible, and as long as he keeps fighting for the impossible, he is HELPING the establishment crush any possibility of progress.
Oh, look at this third party, thinking they can overturn the longheld duopoly power of the Democratic and Wig parties. What a waste of time, they said. It'll never happen, they said. [Wig party dies out to be overtaken by the newly formed Republican party.] Who could've known, they said? [Anyone who actually knows history.] Political parties are not immortal, only Bobby's useless apathy.
Something about the way this guy talks that makes me dislike him instantly... seems very full of himself and like he enjoys listening to himself speak 🤮
Dialog is good. I favor tolerance over intolerance. I want to hear healthy debate on the left - it's infinitely preferable to the circular firing squad. I want to hear Roland Martin as a guest.
I agree with Vaush 100%. Biden's record is shit but he was and is MILES better for not only the economy but for social issues, the lgbt community, and people of color than Trump. If that's not enough to convince you to vote for him then the political base of the country will just move along without you.
If you have problems with how Biden is running things now, and I have MANY, take heart in knowing that now our criticisms won't be met with "wElL whAt aBouT tRUMp?" and if they are it won't be an effective rebuttal.
Ah yes the man who wrote the crime bill, lied about police reform, is giving more money to ice is great for people of color...at least Trump could do an executive order lmao
What economy and what social issues? When in all of his career did Biden ever support anything substantively other than sacrificing human lives at war for his personal blood money gains?
I don’t know where else to plug this idea, but would you two try to bring on Beau of the fifth column? Anti authoritarian left who was very much engulfed in the authoritarian right for a while(ex-military and cop trainer). I think he would fall into the libertarian left, but has a cool temper and ability to see perspectives that rarely occur to me.
Love the work you two are doing!
I have no doubt he'll eventually be a guest on this show. Absolutely no doubt.
What are your views on Chris Hedges? Who do you like to read?
That’s be a nice get…good call.
I was/am a Bernie-or-bust voter. Voted green both 2016 and 2020. You can try to tell me how much of a lesser evil Hilary/Biden was/is than Trump but 1) they still evil and 2) more importantly, I disagree and this is why: the Democrats have moved so far right since Clinton and the liberal voters and media “go back to brunch” and go to sleep every.single.time under Democratic administrations and really harmful things get passed that wouldn’t get passed under Republican leadership because of the blowback and uproar that’s present when there’s a GOP president.
As Thomas Frank spells out, if you look at NAFTA, ‘94 Crime Bill, Balanced Budget, [resulting from] gutting of the Welfare system, bank & telecom deregulation for Clinton, and as Chris Hedges shows, amongst other things, Obama’s failure to prosecute Wall Street, further the class divide, his overseeing of the decaying of middle class wealth via home ownership, expansion of the security/surveillance state, prosecuting whistleblowers, TPP…these are things that would have been VOCIFEROUSLY fought by liberals if attempted under Republican leadership, perhaps to the point of curtailing some of them.
So spare me the ghouls of the blue team being the lesser of 2 evils. I’ll pass on the 40 year plan Vaush is talking about and abandoning principles when it comes to voting.
Agreed Ivan, why should anybody listen to Vaush's political commentary if his plan is to vote blue no matter who, wait until environmental collapse by 2060, then create a movement from that? I don't mind if that is his pesimistic guess of what the reality will be, I tend to agree, but it sounded like that was his actual prime strategy moving forward?!
And the stuff he said about US sanctions on anybody who doesn't satisfy US labour demands, like my god, just awful and so concerning that he can't see what a terrible idea that would be and how biased it would end up being in implementation. Total US imperialism with a nice dose of Russia and China warmongering! Hard Pass!
Will not be sussing his channel, didn't bring anything of value to the table for me...
Bernie support drop during the Trump presidency. The whole blowback and uproar that happens when there is a GOP president isn't making people go to the left, it's making people go Democrat. Every liberal won't think about solutions because orange man is the problem.
So the question is, you want people to move to the left, or you want people to move democrat.
Dude it's fine if you don't want border cages, voting for better border cages will still be more aligned with your vision than voting for Trump, or abstaining.
Seriously, the only problem is: The more the GOP is in power, less power the Justice Democrates had historicaly (it's funny to say historicaly with recent history but it's acurate).
Obama sucked and every single liberal "orange man badding" wanted him back. but the more Obama was in power, the more people wanted Bernie. That's it
@Arthur I do not see where you get causation out of this correlation. How do you account for the potential, not even the assumption, just the potential that by choosing lesser evils you are ensuring that a worse set of evils will be your choice in the subsequent election cycle? IF that was happening, what would you do about it? How would you escape that perpetual drain? When would you know that was the situation you were facing?
Personally, my litmus for that situation is definitely surpassed BECAUSE the lesser evils on the table are pieces of shit that I would never trust to do anything right. They are all murderous human garbage by their past positions and actions. I don't go trusting a devil I know. I don't go trusting a devil with power at all. When I see the lesser evil choices as people who could be descent human beings with opinions that are different from mine, that's when I would accept this notion of picking one over the other, and NEVER over some ideological colors crated for unfounded arbitrary buckets of issues that are defined by nothing of real substance.
1. You're operating on the assumption that the next time the lesser devil would be worse. Even though, and I can't stress this enough, during the Trump presidency less people wanted Bernie than during the Obama presidency, his popularity fall. It's true that this is correlation, but it's more substantiated than "I refuse to vote for Biden cause the democrats will absolutely not move further right when they lose voters from the left"
2. If indeed I had to choose the lesser of 2 evils again, and they're worse options then today, I would pick the lesser of 2 evils again. If the Democrats are trying to move to the right and they would pull this trick to keep moving the Overtown Window. They winning or not wouldn't change the fact that the overtown window would move right. The problem is the current US system that avoids plurality of political opinions and reinforce voter apathy.
3. I sympathize with your disgust of having to pick the lesser of two evils, but to that I'll ask. If you had to choose between Hitler and Trump. Would you vote for Trump? Would you abstain? It's in the deepest blue states that the bigger progressive wins are happening. You need to vote for Trump if you want to reach Bernie one day. Because when Hitler is in power, everyone will pray for the better administration of Trump. But put Trump in power, and people will want a better candidate than him.
4. Voter apathy is by far the thing that maintain these ghouls in power. Most of the country is progressive, and yet the progressives are the ones which don't even try to vote, can't you see that with a 2 party system this means they aren't really a population with voting power? we need progressives voting blue so the next blue can be more progressive. if only 1% of the country were active voters, both the democrat and the republicans would ignore the 99%, we already see this happening.
1. You're going to have to source that full load for me. Barely anyone knew who Bernie was until the 2016 election. Regardless, the point you are opposing is not affected by Bernie or any progressive's popularity. If you elect a piece of shit, those who put him there as your lesser evil option learn NOTHING and do it again. Look at the downward trend of dipshits used as lesser evil arguments to both sides.
What the fuck don't you understand about me holding zero trust in the Democrats? I give NO fucks if they stop going right or not. With a third of abstain votes written in, a THIRD PARTY candidate will prove by the data that they are electable, then the real push from a real third party candidate who is not a piece of shit will be run.
If you have ZERO limitations of how much of a disgustingly batshit dishonest candidate your lesser evil pick would have to be before you said fuck it all and abstain to make your point, then they WILL NEVER STOP GETTING WORSE. They have no reason to. You rewarded them a leadership position in spite of being in no way qualified to have the integrity needed to lead the country.
And btw, FUCK the overton window! It's imaginary rationalized garbage. Left and right, liberal and conservative, these are false dichotomies that represent NO ONE. They are arbitrary buckets of issues which at best define people by which bucket their most important issue happens to identify them as. It's garbage meant to distract us and divide us and prevent real change.
3. Nope! Fuck Hitler and FUCK Trump! I'd never vote for either of them. If they were the only choices, I'd write in "ABSTAIN" and advise others to do so as well. Fuck them both right up their sociopathic asses. If you vote for them, even if you rationalize it like a schmuck, YOU PUT THEM IN POWER. YOU DID THAT. Take some goddamned responsibility for your choice. Assuming you voted for Biden, that means it's your goddamned fault we can't yet get out of war. Our weapons used to kill people in the hands of Saudi's and Israel, that's on you because you didn't put your fucking foot down and demand it. Go vote, but write in "abstain" if you want to make a difference and avoid blood on your hands.
4. Voting to abstain is not voter apathy. It's taking the time to make a vote, showing that you are there at the ready when a candidate is worth more than the spit under your shoe. By a campaign of abstaining, you also encourage people to vote on other issues besides the presidency that they believe in. The only way out of all of this mess is through solidarity. You will never get the truly apathetic or uninspired to come out to vote with pure dishonest garbage offered to represent them. They aren't voting because they aren't suckers willing to waste their time on a scam.
TBH, if you managed to convince me that the nonviolent vote to collectively write-in abstain would not work, then the only answer worth considering to break this corruption would have to be violence, plain and simple. We can't get shit-for-brains politicians to vote to fix the voting system that got them seated. We can't even trust the progressives who won to do it. We have to take our own action. Sitting on your ass and repeating the same stupid strategy will get you nowhere.
What do you mean barely anyone knew Bernie Sanders, he was the most popular Senator of the Country. Literally the most famous non president. About the stats. Biden got double the votes that Bernie did, with a 26 point lead. Hillary won against Bernie with only a 8 point lead.
Here https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35621745 some text about Obama and Bernie strategy.
Please vote for Trump if Hitler goes agains't him, the democratic process don't care about abstain voters, they just don't.
4. TRUUUUU, Bernie had a huge suport amongst non-voters! Bernie Suporters didn't wanna vote tho... Which is why he didn't won the primary even tho polls showed him winning. Fuck lazy people...
The only point I have is that the more the GOP wins, the worse the devils of Democrats become, if you can't get left leaning votes, you sure can get right leaning votes.
Also, chill man, left and right mean stuff k.
Have a nice week
Yeah, "most famous senator" was never really a high bar for most people, so you'll need a source to make this point about who's had more of a following to me.
Biden didn't have any lead in 2020 until he made back room deals to be endorsed by the dropouts who were only there to stop Bernie in the first place. The Dem primary does not reflect the people's views. It's a rigged system that's more rigged than the general. The fact that Bernie was leading before he was ganged up on to take him out of the running is evidence that he stood a better chance against Trump.
Biden risked Trump over Bernie... But you saw Biden as a lesser evil to Trump anyway... Think about that one.
The democratic process doesn't care about claims that have no rational justification. You're only ignoring my argument and not countering it in any valid way. It's just so because you say so.
People who didn't vote in the general and supported Bernie aren't lazy. They felt defeated that he didn't win the primary. My argument is that IF Bernie told them to come write in "ABSTAIN" if they didn't like Biden enough to vote for him, then that would have made a better turnout. They don't even know it's an option. You EVEN would have some who changed their minds at the last minute and voted for Biden after they got there. There is NO downside to telling people who feel defeated to go to the polls anyway and vote their conscience to abstain.
And don't get me wrong, my argument isn't antithetical to yours. If I had a platform, I would have said that if you don't think Biden is too big a piece of shit to vote for, then you should vote for him. I know he's too big a bloodmoney racketteering dumbshit in my book, but that's me. I'll abstain, you vote for a pedophile clown you can get behind. That's not apathy, that's solidarity among positions that strongly differ.
I am chill, just passionate. Get back to me when you have a clear and consistent definition for left and right. I'll take people on their issues individually and focus on the not-so-black-and-white reality to form solutions until then. The GOP is not your actual enemy. Your enemy is every politician who's willing to lie to you.
You hit the nail on the head, man. I couldn't disagree more with Vaush on this one.
Good. So no plan then? What's even the point of writing all this?
Indeed. You know what would happen if 1/3 of voters wrote in their true position of "ABSTAIN" for an election? A better third party or good candidate would realize they have a chance and run hard in the next election.
More than a third of the US already don't vote... actually, 47% didn't vote on the 2016 election.
Third parties don't work in the current paradigm, infiltrate the current ones or lose all voting power.
If you want to abolish the electoral college, it would be easier if you pick democrats, since there will never be a republican victory again if this happens.
Remember that the closest shot to abolish the electoral college depends on the supreme court deciding upon the legality of the National Popular Vote Compact. And trust me, you don't want trump picking the judges at the Supreme Court.
There isn't a single argument on the planet that would ever convince me to go back to voting for a Democratic candidate for president. Ever. And if all of us had stuck to our principles, we'd have Bernie Sanders as president today. I'm DONE being bullied or shamed or spoken down to as if I'm stupid about how politics "works," by people who keep the status quo in power. Fuck that noise.
Good, then you no longer have any right to complain or speak about political matters ever again. If you choose to tune out by not voting, you're a useless coward and should be shunned from polite society.
Who the hell said I'm not voting? People like you don't deserve to live in a democracy where everyone's voice matters. You're the reason we keep getting screwed. GFY.
You just said you're not voting Democrat, which either means you're not voting or going third party (the same thing). Or maybe you've decided to vote Republican in the future? What happens in 2024 when it's Harris vs. some Qanon nutbag?
Seeing Vaush and Kyle converse is a dream come true. Two lefty figures that helped pull out the right-wing tendencies and that got me interested in politics!
With a long conservative legacy and being the candidate of "no substantial change" Biden had no hope in hell of getting my vote. Healthcare's my redline and that's all he had to convince me he would deliver. Instead, he shrugged it off as instinctively a Republican would during the campaign.
"degenerate lefty & nihilistic existentialist"
I did get a lol from this, cheers :)
I don’t like Vaush, but I do appreciate Krystal and Kyle’s efforts to have a respectful & civil conversation with him and other left wing commentators and ask critical questions. There is one issue I wish they would question him on though, and I haven’t yet seen it addressed.
I’ve watched nearly every Secular Talk video for the last three years, so I know Kyle doesn’t like to wade into ‘culture war’ issues, but I would argue that this goes beyond culture wars.
The very first video on Vaush’s channel at the time I found him was him was one in which he responded to JK Rowling’s very thoughtful and carefully written essay on transgender issues - which he wildly smeared as her “TERF Manifesto” in the title, and then went on to mischaracterize in the actual video. I have watched more of Vaush since then, and on this particular issue, he has made his position very clear: transwomen are women, they should be fully treated as such in all respects, and any objection to this statement is simply being reactionary and hateful.
Now seeing as I’m a woman who observes biological reality (there are two sexes, and you cannot change from one to the other), and seeing as I do not believe in the concept of a magical innate “gender identity,” and seeing as I’m highly skeptical of experimental treatments being carried out in the name of “gender transition,” I guess I’ll be called a TERF too. As a female person who will be directly impacted by legislation like the Equality Act, which would allow males who “self identify” as females to claim discrimination if they are not allowed full access to female only spaces, this is an extremely important issue to me. For other many women I know, this totally alienates us from the left, which is collectively behaving like religious, science-denying cult members on this issue.
That is my main problem with Vaush. I don’t agree with people unfairly smearing him, and I am happy to give credit where it’s due and say I agree with Vaush on most issues. But this issue affects all women’s material reality, and so it’s way too big for me personally to ignore.
In SecularTalk’s video responding to the criticism on this episode, Kyle described Vaush as “honest” and says he and Krystal asked all the important critical questions. It is NOT honest to deny material biological reality, which affects women as a class. It is dishonest for Vaush to say that males who identify with feminine stereotypes literally become females, and to encourage his huge audience in believing that females are bigots for wanting to uphold and defend our sex based rights. And I know Kyle doesn’t care about my criticism, but I do think that is a question worth pushing back on.
Transphobes malding pepelaugh
I have no ill will towards trans people. Dress/behave/call yourself whatever you like. What I take issue with is the left’s collective denial of material reality and pushing for legislation that will negatively impact females as a class.
How exactly does this negatively impact cis-women? By altering polls that should have accounted for gender and sex differences?
In the US, some states already allow males to enter spaces that are rightfully segregated by sex simply by declaring that they “feel like women” (whatever that means.)
For instance, in Washington state, a male rapist and serial killer of female victims has successfully transferred to a women’s prison by saying he identifies as a female. In Connecticut, my state, high school boys who say they feel like girls have been allowed to compete on the girls teams, despite the observable biological advantage males have in terms of physical strength. In most sports, the competition will never be truly fair. Most male athletes will always outclass even the best female athletes. Identity doesn’t change physiology.
For an example outside the US, the Vancouver Rape Relief & Women’s Shelter was the target of a harassment campaign (they were vandalized and had a dead rat nailed to their door, among other things) and lost their state funding because they would not house males, nor allow males to work directly with female rape victims seeking help from the shelter. This decision was made to safeguard the safety and dignity of victims of violent sexual crime, but it was portrayed as hateful to males who identify as women.
The Equality Act, if it passes Congress, would enable this sort of thing to happen across the US, because it forbids discrimination on the grounds of “gender identity.” The concept of gender identity is that everyone has a magical innate gender soul, separate from biological reality, and that this gender soul determines what you really are. I find this to be religious thinking, and I also think it’s dangerous for men and women alike to be encouraged to deny reality and become lifelong medical patients just because they fit in with some behavioral stereotypes of the opposite sex.
As for how this relates to Vaush, anyone who listens regularly to him will come across this topic, since he is clear on his stance that women with my views are ‘hateful TERFs.’ Pretty hard to unite the left when so many women are alienated and basically forced out from it for refusing to accept magical thinking.
There's where you have it wrong. Bathrooms, prisons, and the like are not rightly segregated by sex.
Prisons do not need to be about punishment at all, and should rightly be about reform. Most of the requirement to combine people at all in a prison is foolish and unnecessary. Prisons need to be reformed and replaced by mental health institutions, because the human behavior that got them there is a matter of human psychology. They are a joke, otherwise, so, there's really nothing to be said about how they are self defeating when an exception is made to let someone avoid being around the more violent offenders if they can.
As for bathrooms, you don't need to share a space for disposing of waste from your body. You don't even need to hide it at all, but even assuming that you somehow needed to protect yourself from the exposure of your specialized snowflake aspects of human anatomy, there's never been any need to make restrooms communal and shared, regardless of any specific sex that would use them.
If you optimized for the space saving designs that these spaces are going for when they make them communal and then stop giving a shit about what anyone looks like going in, then you could optimize for actual safety by having men and women watching over the actions that take place in those spaces. Most men are trustworthy. If it's a question of strength, there will almost always be enough men and women to control any unwanted human behavior in every other coed space, so why not a bathroom?
Finally, there's the problems, or conundrums that occur when you try to separate people by sex or gender at all. You don't just have transpeople to consider. You have intersex people as well.
Imagine you grew up believing you were a girl your whole life, only to find out to everyone's surprise, including your parents and your doctor, that you are a genetic male? You discover this at the age of 14 when you get tested because you tell your doctor that you still haven't had your period. Which bathroom do you use in that case by your standards? Don't give me the garbage about them being a small exception. Small numbers don't take away the fact that people are being treated inhumanely or are oppressed. You want to make a rule that works fairly, then you gotta cover everybody, including intersex.
What's more, transpeople have a reasonable chance of actually being intersex biologically on a level. Your body develops sexual characteristics based on your hormones. That's a chemical cocktail that determines if you have testicles or ovaries. That same chemical cocktail develops your genitals at a different stage of development than it develops your brain. Imagine if transpeople legitimately had a change in their hormonal cocktail while their brains were first developing? If any instincts or ways of thinking are associated with sex biologically, then they are legitimately intersex by that account of how it occurred. They would have developed the genitals of one sex but developed the instincts and thinking that would make them feel feel like another.
By all means, ignore the dumb fucks who shame you for not knowing these biology facts never taught in school and just questioning the situation. Update yourself on the fact that when you look at the truth of biology, it's never simple. Life itself is NOT SIMPLE. Try studying it if you don't believe me.
If you still don't follow, then take a look at images of Buck Angel and Blair White and tell me which bathroom you want them to shit in and which prison you think they belong in if they broke the law.
You keep pretending that declaring yourself as trans is something you just do and it open all doors for you.
If people who aren't trans are getting trans treatment this is only a condemnation of the institutions at hand. Not trans people.
Also stop with the weird fixation on Transwoman. We know you don't care about Transman so just say trans people and we'll connect the dots.
1. If they are at puberty blockers they won't have the physical upper-hand on cis people, and if they decide on hormonal transition, they will experience a female puberty, resulting in the same physical development of their muscles as of a cis woman. All institutions of prestige have those requirements for trans-people in sports, and it's the institution fault if they don't.
2. Trans-woman are more at danger than the inverse. If you wanna talk about segregated spaces like restroom, they are far more likely to be targets of agression than the inverse. If you wanna talk about abuse shelters *they are far more likely to be victims of abuse than cis people*.
3. Stop pretending you can't change gender either, you're just wrong and everyone who knows what they're talking about disagree.
4. The biological reality of sex doesn't need to be confused with the sociological reality of gender. Since you don't like the term TERF, I'll be less precise with what you are you entitled prick.
Is there anything wrong with just stating the clear X=X statement here? Transwomen are transwomen. Where and why does the conversation need to go beyond that? I don't know a transwoman to have ever taken issue with being called a transwoman. If someone calls a transwoman a woman, then why not just grant them the charity of assuming they meant transwoman or ask for clarification if it's confusing?
Hey Steve, just sent a longer reply in another comment, but a quick note here - I agree with you. However, observing that there is any difference between transwomen and women is considered transphobic in the wider discourse on the left. This is how we are led into situations like those that I outlined in my earlier comment to you.
The only acceptable mode of thinking in leftwing discourse is that a woman is “anyone with the gender identity of woman,” and likewise for men. Under that definition, it is discriminatory to deny access to sex-segregated spaces, services, etc. to someone on the basis of his material biological reality, if he says he “identifies” differently.
The conversation must happen, because not only is this dangerous religious thinking, but laws are already being quietly passed in the US that support this fantasy. And unfortunately, it’s largely the left pushing these arguments, and it needs to be pushed back on by other leftists.
On the first paragraph, I totally get that, but where I might disagree with you is that it's not a worthwhile battle to pick until you are calling them out for outright censorship. Let them be triggered by your choice words. If they try to cancel you in some way, that's when you fight back. Otherwise, it's just not worth it IMHO.
If it does come to getting cancelled, there's a great video by ThereminTrees on Dogma that I think highlights all of that problem completely. Try adding this quote by him to your arsenal:
"One form of misrepresentation is exaggeration. If our opponent makes a moderate statement of fact that includes a careful qualification and we ignore that qualification and attribute our opponent with a far more extreme view than they've actually expressed, we haven't addressed what's been said in any valid way.” - ThereminTrees, How Dogma Pollutes Discourse
I responded to your other post on the actual situation regarding biology, so I'll await your response to that. I, for one love having that conversation with people who are genuinely concerned. It's a huge hit to your metaphysical reality to even know about these facts of biology vs the social constructs our society formed without biology as their inspiration. Anyone who says it's obvious, never actually thought about it.
Stop lying, you call transwoman "males who think they're woman" and say that gender don't exist. Fuck off with this mask
Now, if you want to ask clarification of what a priest means when he says he is literally eating a dead man's body, that's a valid concern.
Force the vote was about policy, political stategy 101, and revealing fraud progressives, not dems per se. Vash is so very very wrong on that. he dems co-op progressives, it was 100% the right course to go. Even in failure, it reveals. Vash had me going until FTV came up...Dominated by bad faith actors in the establishment...talk is cheap, action is what matters
come on Vash, 50/50 on political 101?
hahaha. Forcethevote was nothing more than a demagogue and his sycophantic base of ideologically underdeveloped kids attacking people who disagreed with them over a bloody STRATEGY. The entire thing was beyond juvenile and only exposed how incredibly YOUNG and ignorant the American left really is on political strategy and what it takes to actually win. Hint: attacking your ideological allies because they disagree with you on a stupid strategy that could have backfired *horrendously* is NOT how you win.
uh, sure, Vaush, TYT, Sam S, etc, are juvenile/young/foolish...but It's actually worse than that. DSA, squad, purported to use said strategy to get elected, but then refuse to fight. Indeed, how not to win.
Your ilk, Bob, certainly isn't an ally.
Probably just a troll though, Vaush's hyporissy from early interview to late interview is impossible to miss. He does exactly what he condemns & laments earlier...
Your perception of them "refusing to fight" is born from the mouth of a demagogue you have an emotional connection to (Dore) and not from anything approaching the realities of the American political system. When they refuse to "play the game," you people call them weak and useless, but then when they actually play the game you call them corrupt and ineffective. This is called a circular firing squad, and there is only ONE faction on the left constantly engaging in this behaviour as opposed to ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK to build coalitions and collectively get things done. You and "your ilk" are shit-disturbers with nothing of value to offer the American left.
you done projecting?
lol that doesn't even make sense from your perspective. I'm projecting my criticisms of lazy same'ism grifting asshats? Jesus, are you twelve?
yap yap yap goes the deranged shitlib
Why can’t I see the video? I subbed for a year
try https://krystalkyleandfriends.substack.com/p/a-deep-dive-with-vaush-krystal-and
Just watched the secular talk video 'Krystal and Saagar's goodbye video PULLED...' and unsubbed from the Hill and joined this substack. Bari Weiss is trash.
Haha same here. Unsubbed from the hill. And hoping they beat out Bari....I wish I wasn't a Weiss.
I loved this ep. Subscribed to Vaush today, with a set of nudges I would like to press all of the speakers on. You were SPOT ON, Vaush and Kyle, when pointing out that a lack of charity is the problem. However, Vaush, showed a lack of charity in how he dealt with Jimmy Dore. Jimmy does fuck up a lot, but the back and fourth on who is insincere is both not unfounded, while at the same time, we know from human psychology that most people are sincere about the views they claim to have.
Things got heated on force the vote. I think Kyle should have had some convos with Jimmy directly and recorded them because they are the perfect two to speak together on both being charitable while holding people accountable. AOC didn't only drop force the vote. She tweeted that it was a hopeless endeavor and proceeded to do favors for Pelosi. On TYT, Cenk argued that you are a fool to be a part of force the vote and then flipped his position on the general topic right after it was too late, all while claiming that the difference in his views with Jimmy were about the timing, still not explaining what justifies the right timing or not.
Personally, I can be wrong, but I think Cenk is sincerely a fool on that issue and AOC has shown many signs of caving to the pressure of falling in line rather than fighting, so, a fool as well IMHO who has had the time and care to think about her options, but still chose a horrible strategy. UNLESS AOC has a literal gun to her head, she's trying to make psychopathic murderers her friends by caving to their demands at every turn.
Jimmy doesn't strategize much, but his criticism to that effect was valid. If I had a platform, I would pressure AOC to fight harder and I would show her how it's done. She and Cenk both need to be held responsible for their bad decisions. AOC did not say force the vote was a valid idea she disagreed with. She claimed it was a hopeless effort and didn't explain why or how at all. I can parse out that she is effectively selling out by her actions because there is clearly a lot she is not telling us about her thinking, and STILL hold some charity that she could mean well by it in the end. Still yet, I would shame her as I would shame a close friend for not telling us what the fuck she's thinking when she drags her feet on ANY issue.
We don't have any time to waste. Also, Vaush, you don't need to wait for alternative voting to kick in. Tell people to write in "ABSTAIN" for a position when both people running are clear pieces of shit. 1. This will encourage the nonvoters to go to the polls, because they have a choice that suits their views. 2. If enough people do this, then the polls will not be able to write off those votes as crazy people. "Abstain" should already be a required option if this were any reliable study of what the people want. As long as we have a chance to deliver a middle finger to all of the shitty candidates running, more people would vote and more of the true wisdom of the crowd will come out of it.
Jimmy Dore is the single biggest useful idiot on youtube. It's not even close. His entire channel fosters APATHY - and since apathy is the #1 problem in American leftist politics, this makes Jimmu Dore a disingenuous clown. Forcethevote was a perfectly fine idea, until Jimmy Dore decided to make it a litmus test against other lefties, his audience in turn becoming vipers running around endlessly attacking their ideological allies over a f*cking strategy! How childishly embarrassing. Jimmy simply has nothing of value to offer the American left, and *everything* of value to offer the esatablishment Democrats. Believe me when I say this, if there is one political figure on youtube that Pelosi and her people can get behind? It's Jimmy Dore. The man divides the left FAR FAR FAR better than anybody in power could ever hope to accomplish.
At what point in the battle do you stop listening to the guy telling you to hold your ground? It doesn't seem to be before the opposing has already run you through. Someone refusing to ever fight seems like quite a useful idiot indeed.
Pushing disingenuous narratives that do nothing but harm and divide the left in America is the definition of being a useful idiot. But he doesn't care because he ONLY cares about money, and it's quite lucrative to "play" the outsider in the current political system - right-wingers do it ALL THE TIME. You can try to laughably explain how Dore is "fighting the good fight" by pushing endless swaths of apathy onto his ideologically underdeveloped audience... but I will then tell you that you are wrong and need to stfu. He (and others like him such as Niko House and Kim Iverson) are the absolute WORST aspects of the left in every conceivable way. These people are same'ism grifting dumpster fires of the highest order.
Jimmy might be an idiot, but he's not disingenuous. He's intellectually lazy, but he's authentic. When someone shows you who they really are, believe them.
A lot of the people he has called out deserve it. Some of them, like Sam Harris, didn't. If any of them tried to explain their side of the story like Harris did, I'd side with them if it made any sense at all. As it is, TYT and AOC, for example, are rightfully being called out for dragging their feet by him and they have no explanations as of yet to give. TYT just counters with emotional outrage and AOC with silence when she should be exposing the backroom deals being offered to her for her cooperation with Pelosi.
As I say all the time, when Jimmy says he would sell out in the drop of a hat for enough money... believe him. That's not a joke. Maybe he has not sold out in the traditional sense, but he's fostered an apathetic audience of doomer children and he does nothing but attack and divide to maintain that audience. That's selling out his morals, in my opinion, and hurts the left as a whole. Tell me again why anybody should listen to this man? He simply cannot comprehend that our leftist allies in power ALSO have a game to play, and that game sometimes appears like they're being agreeable towards people he and his audience hates. This is called playing the game. When they DO play, they're corrupted and sold out. When they do NOT play, they are weak and useless. Which is it? Can't be both.
Saying is not the same as showing. I'll be ready to shit on him if he does sell out.
Could you be more ironically enraged over people's actions that you label apathy? Taking action is not apathy, but you seem to think it is, and that pisses you off. How would someone genuinely apathetic even get to live in your head so comfortably?
Gonna need an example of where Jimmy ever changed his position to "fighting the elite class hard makes you a sellout."
I'm still pissed off about this dumb interview 5 days after listening. Vaush hates Dore because he's just like him. Both impute from a disagreements that the other is a bad faith actor: Sanders, AOC and TYT in Dore's case, Dore, myself and many others in Vaush's case. Vaush in this interview at the same time denounced such behavior, even though it's fundamental to his brand. He's a hypocrite projecting onto Dore.
I think it's a weakness in Dore's method but at least he's going after the right targets. Like Bill Hicks or George Carlin, I enjoy the humor and passion. Vaush otoh is a pompous bore.
And Vaush had so many structural ideas wrong in this interview with no pushback and I’m only an hour in. Makes it hard to listen to.
When your entire goal as a channel is to create "non-voters," push people to completely useless third-party efforts, all while directly ATTACKING the concept of Democrat reform... you're a grifter. And a piece of sh*t.
I explained why voting "abstain" isn't useless. Read a book if you don't agree. Expecting Democrat reform while voting for a piece of shit is the only wasted vote. Not making any money here, so not a grifter.
Voting abstain is useless, and is exactly what the powers that be want. Once you come to realize that the establishment on BOTH sides want apathetic/non-voters, it all falls into place. They want you to abstain. They want you to tune out, go watch Netflix, and never pay attention to politics ever again. ESPECIALLY if you're a leftist, this is very much what they want. "Expecting Democrat reform" is only possible with enough leftist Democrats in power - which should be the *only* goal of the collective left at this point. Literally nothing else matters because without Democrat reform, we're all fucked eventually. Period.
Oh good... let's see, where is there media telling people to vote abstain? Where is that campaign run by the elite class exactly?
Voting to abstain is not apathy. Read a book. Learn the reasons why abstain is used historically. Not going to the polls, aka not voting, that's apathy.
If I had a platform, I could get an army of people going to the polls just to write "abstain" and that will not go unnoticed by the powers that be. 1/3 already don't vote. 1/3 proving they are ready to vote for a candidate who earns their vote, that's proof of concept for a third party to win.
You're missing the damn point. Let me repeat this very simple fact: NO third-party will ever, and I mean *ever* become even remotely viable until one of the two major parties currently in control of the entire system from the media on downwards decide to reform their own rules and/or enact laws in support of third-parties. PERIOD. Jimmy *knows this* which is why his rhetoric attacking Democrat reform while pushing for a people's party is disingenuous virtue signalling nonsense. HIS play is absolutely and unequivocally impossible, and as long as he keeps fighting for the impossible, he is HELPING the establishment crush any possibility of progress.
Oh, look at this third party, thinking they can overturn the longheld duopoly power of the Democratic and Wig parties. What a waste of time, they said. It'll never happen, they said. [Wig party dies out to be overtaken by the newly formed Republican party.] Who could've known, they said? [Anyone who actually knows history.] Political parties are not immortal, only Bobby's useless apathy.
Because you say so? What's your argument?
Something about the way this guy talks that makes me dislike him instantly... seems very full of himself and like he enjoys listening to himself speak 🤮
Just a week ago, I was like: „I hope Krystal will go full indy at some point.“ I congratulate you!
Dialog is good. I favor tolerance over intolerance. I want to hear healthy debate on the left - it's infinitely preferable to the circular firing squad. I want to hear Roland Martin as a guest.
I agree with Vaush 100%. Biden's record is shit but he was and is MILES better for not only the economy but for social issues, the lgbt community, and people of color than Trump. If that's not enough to convince you to vote for him then the political base of the country will just move along without you.
If you have problems with how Biden is running things now, and I have MANY, take heart in knowing that now our criticisms won't be met with "wElL whAt aBouT tRUMp?" and if they are it won't be an effective rebuttal.
Ah yes the man who wrote the crime bill, lied about police reform, is giving more money to ice is great for people of color...at least Trump could do an executive order lmao
What economy and what social issues? When in all of his career did Biden ever support anything substantively other than sacrificing human lives at war for his personal blood money gains?
Anyone know where to find the video link for this?
Legendary pod. Keep it up!